IBD = intermittent blowdown. Here are additional questions and comments that I have for my situation: When water treated by lime-soda process is filtered through a sand water filter, a good amount of silica dissolves in it (forming calcium and magnesium silicates) due to alkaline nature of waters. ----Ed. water conservation Some sites say it does and some say it doesn't! MY PLANT WAS RUNNING SMOOTHLY BEFORE THAT. What about just a water softener? Kind Regards, Q. Dear Brijesh, I like your question, but let me ask something: if we have DI water but silica is 20 ppm, we want it 0.1 ppm, will RO work for it? Particles smaller than .015 microns can become lodged inside the membrane pores, occluding them and causing an earlier than expected loss of production. There are 2 forms of Silica in water, colloidal silica and ionic silica. We have shown that drinking up to 1 L of a silicon-rich mineral water each day for 12 weeks facilitated the removal of aluminum via the urine in both patient and control groups without any concomitant affect upon the urinary excretion of the essential metals, iron and copper. 3a) "They said silica is at only about 20 parts. 2) "One person with a home well said that it would cost $15,000 for whole house reverse osmosis. " Thanks. Oxidised silicon atoms can and do exist in many different chemical and mineral forms, hence a process that works at one location may not be successful in another. Does your industrial facility need to remove silica from its feed water? A. Aluminium? In our boiler drum, saturated steam contains 0.01 silica but in super heated steam silica increases up to 0.52 ppm. total counts are low. This will not ion exchange and may foul an RO membrane. Silica can exist in water as relatively large particles, known as silica granules or granular silicates. Dissolved silica responds well to reverse osmosis, while colloidal silica … you gave a clue to the answer in your heading.."Colloidal" silica. Can I install a polisher to remove excess Silica at the user (chamber) end of the system? Drinking Water Understanding the chemical and or mineralogy involving silicon is a fundamental first step in selecting and designing the most appropriate solid-liquid separation technology for a silicate removal process, for any successful drinking water treatment. Granular silica removal is generally accomplished through physical chemical separation. The only way of removing these is by Ultrafiltration or Reverse Osmosis which can reduce both of the above >98%. We want to decrease the chemical consumption. When a person uses silica supplements to detox, the Aluminum and the other heavy metals present in the body are passed in the urine and eliminated with it. Speaking from experience here; do not recommend. Quick Facts About Silica: Silica is short for silicon dioxide. Based on the previous water supply from the Fishers Lane Water Treatment Plant where Silica content was approximately 20 to 25 mg/L, the goal set for these treatment evaluations was What is the reason of SiO2 increasing? Silica in deionized water can easily be reduced to 20-50 ppb. Don't drink the RO water. To minimize search efforts and to offer multiple viewpoints, we combined previously separate threads onto this page. Kindly inform us to remove silica in high alkalinity water. Read further up the thread for discussion of 'DI systems' using this technology. I'm not sure if I even understood the question, but in order to try to remove silica you have mixed two anion exchange resins in the one vessel for better performance than you got from either resin alone? water plant disinfectant pollution I try to convince them to base exchange soften before RO, so that we can fine tune the RO for silica rejection by increasing pH of RO feed...(increasing pH of RO feed without softening first will rapidly scale membrane with Calcium). A. I am facing a problem in SBA supply by THERMAX PLANT. The initial investment will be high but it will help those dealing in HP Boilers. 5. Thank you for taking the time to so thoroughly explain what a DI system is, how it works and the costs involved in installation, use, upkeep, etc. Maybe SBA EXHAUST but a doubt due to not possible that fresh SBA taken in. There were a couple of gems in that monograph. "background": "#237afc" What is the most efficient process to remove 180 ppm of silica (reactive or colloidal) to Colloidal silica is basically a polymer with virtually no charge so Ion Exchange methods cannot remove the same. Can you post some technical information about this technology so that readers can view it. window.addEventListener("load", function(){ Besides having a flat, awful taste, you actually are better off with a certain level of minerals in your drinking water. In actual practice, silicates of calcium and magnesium acts as cements and they even bind together other particles present inside boiler into a very hard scale. Reactive silica is what it is called when silica and bisilicate are in equilibrium with each other. NOT including labor or resin matrix. Please give technical process if it's reason of SAC EXHAUST. This method is based on the reaction of calcium hydroxide (lime) with the silica colloids. Think of the cost of setting up a photovoltaic system capable of running your whole house. Thanks. Make sure you check that the softener is rated for Silica removal. Silica carry over by steam is believed to la dot to carry one of taller drops containing dissolved silica along with steam (i.e., priming). In some cases for very large flow rates you can remove silica with lime softening techniques. Still, if you don't trust your lab analysis, you'll have to have some other person or service re-do it -- you can't possibly rely on an internet vote to override an actual chemical analysis :-). Can anyone explain why did this happen and is there anything where alkalinity comes into picture? Reverse osmosis will also remove silica by 90-98%. KINDLY TELL ME HOW TO REMOVE THIS SILICA FROM SBA? By the way, I chose Chlorine gas out of potassium permanganate, ozone, and chlorine dioxide. A. Cid. Our lab in-charge says 10 ppm silica in DM water ... is that a right or wrong report, please tell me. Your best approach depends upon what else is in the water and what quality you want the treated water to be. It is very possible that you have 10 mg/L of silica in your DI water. Water Q. A. In lime softening the silica is co-precipitated along with magnesium present in the water (or added if necessary). Analysis. Q. I am a student of one of the universities in A.P. Your operating cost per gallon of water produced on a homeowner sized system is going to be higher than what we pull off out here in the industrial settings, where we have large purchase contracts for consumables (resin) that we get on bulk pricing, and run in facilities that already have means to legally dispose of this type of waste, and skilled labor to operate it. Try electrocoagulation. The corresponding amount of dissolved silica in steam increases to 35-40 ppm at 100 kg/cm2 pressure and the extent of dissolved silica is still higher as the pits-suits increase more and more. There is a molybdosilicate colorimetric method and others in Standard Methods 4500-SiO 2. If silica in dm water, why? The water has low hardness, less than 10 mg/L, low pH 4 to 5, and relatively high soluble iron, hydrogen sulfide and aluminium. 4)" Is it healthier to drink our minimally treated spring water which always passes the utility's required testing or to drink RO water from which minerals are removed?" Which of these silica forms can I remove by microfilter? But the anion resin [is] in one vessel [and is a mix of] 2 types [of] resin, FFIP & 850. A. They said silica is at only about 20 parts. A. I do appreciate any information. Waste Water Treatment } One of the most common methods of removing silica from drinking water is lime softening. what are the effects of having high levels of silica in bottled water? Now simply pour the water on the corals to remove the silica. seawater All that being said, it's quite likely that a couple strategic under-counter softening systems (found at large home improvement stores) to at least take care of a couple lines, like the one into the dishwasher, will be more cost effective. When reverse osmosis (RO) plants are used in water treatment, colloidal silica and associated impurities can foul RO membranes leading to drop in productivity. We can also add a chloride or sulphate Mg salt. A. The removed substance will be picked up by the filter. ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ   -   About finishing.com   -  Privacy Policy Please address whether there are reasonably priced ways to reliably filter out silica for an individual house, other than reverse osmosis. Sometimes, even the catastrophic failure of rotating parts occur. Good luck... and oh yeah... don't shower in deionized water :), Q. Can anyone suggest the most feasible and practical solution in my case? A. Dear All...for all of you who work in Industries. Both of these techniques are non-specific for silica, meaning they also remove all other ionic components along with the silica. Water and chemicals enter the top of the unit and flow to the bottom of the softener through a downcomer. In Arizona this presents a problem of course; the cycling up of silica often limits the capacity to produce power. Q. I have come across the same problem to remove Silica (approximately 30 mg/L) in bore water to drinking water standard. There are mainly 2 forms of Silica the first one is Reactive Silica and the second one is Colloidal Silica. Do you think under sink RO systems would be effective/realistic?" A. I am trying to learn more information on removal of silicon from water. Please forgive any resultant repetition, failures of chronological order, or what may look like readers disrespecting previous responses -- those other responses may not have been on the page at the time :-), Q. I am experiencing problem with Silica rejection by RO membranes. I saw "ultrafiltration" mentioned for commercial applications. Water Purification Scott, you mentioned microbes that remove silica. If you use it to water your houseplants, you must add CalMag to about 100ppm or the plants will soon show signs of multiple nutrient deficiency as the purified water leaches nutrients from the soil and roots. Lime softening utilizes the addition of lime (calcium hydroxide) to remove hardness (calcium carbonate … A. Hi Chirag, If you suspect that silica is present in your household water supply, it is always best to contact a water professional for an evaluation. A silica concentration of up to about 120 mg/L can be tolerated in most RO concentrates. Also, I have read the forum on how to remove the deposits once made. Colloidal silica will show up very little even in the chemical test, as it is a polymer and quite unreactive. } Thanks! But if you search Amazon or other sites you will find water stain removers that claim to remove silica; then you can look up their SDS and you will find the fluoride listed. elements_selector: "iframe" Mg can be topped up using MgO powder in cold conditions when MgO will solubilise through carbonation to form MgCO 3. sewage For improved silica reduction, sludge is recirculated from the cone back to the top of the unit. Ion exchange will remove this as long as the anion resin is the strong base type. This is not lime scale because products for removal of lime scale have no effect. Q. I would like to know if there is a method of removing silica from boiler blowdown having a concentration of 150-200 ppm to below 5 ppm? level of 5 ppm - is this by IE/RO/SBA or by EDI? I have noticed a lot of Silica build up on the samples in the chambers lately. We appended your inquiry to a long and detailed thread which offers some great explanation of silica in DM water. Buildup can disrupt equipment function, but current silica removal methods can cost 1.5–2 times more than simply using fresh water. Water Analysis Chances of increasing SiO2 in SBA EXHAUST of SAC? I'll have to agree. At lower than neutral pH values, there may be a significant amount of non-ionic, soluble silica that can pass through the membranes. Lately we had a little silica (3.2 mg/L) show up in that make up stream. If you read earlier discussion in this thread, one of the things you might notice is that with water purification there is an efficiency of scale (oh no did I just make a bad mineral deposits pun? Hard Water Has been quite effective with silica. 1) "is it still true that, as was stated by another person, that silica, whether in colloidal or reactive (soluble) form, can be effectively removed to very low levels by reverse osmosis?" This water is for for industrial battery charging. If you're talking about the concentrated water from the other side of the membrane, I wouldn't put it on any plantings I care about, although a controlled application of Silica is indeed very good for a plant's immune system- this could be scorch-level concentrated, including with other stuff like Sodium, though so no. Silica in deionized water can easily be reduced to 20-50 ppb. Our spring water contains 68 ppm of Silica. water treatment plant Q. Many times I have seen water with TDS of <5bppm (measured with conductivity meter) have a Silica level of >10 ppm (measured with spectrophotometer, molybdo-vanadate method). Magnesium oxide has been found to quite effective in this regards. So right now we are not able to eliminate the cause for such silica contamination but we need to figure out how bad can be the effect of silica-containing condensate to the desalting process as well as to downstream equipment: oil heat exchangers and reboilers. To remove silica stains a product needs hydrofluoric acid or at least fluoride salts of some sort, and is therefore dangerous stuff. Does silica contribute to water conductivity. I know that colloidal silica may strengthen oil-in-water emulsion, but what about dissolved silica? Reverse osmosis (RO) will remove dissolved silicates, but removal of silicates prior to RO is desirable to reduce the risk of fouling. Q. Water Treatment A. window.cookieconsent.initialise({ Check silica in reject water. For each ppm of SiO2, generally, 4.2 ppm of sodium fluoride is required. There are multiple treatment options available for removing silica from water. Q. I tested town water this week and I received the following information from the lab. To remove silica from the corals, take a water pipe and put a small hose on it. If treatment required, please suggest treatment. The previous forum questions/answers, while interesting, relate mainly to treatment of large water treatment systems or for industrial use. A. I understand that Total Silica = reactive silica + unreactive silica, so does the lab result give me unreactive silica? In high-pressure boilers, the amount of silica must be kept very low, since silica dissolves even in steam, thereby the silica going along with the steam deposits on turbine blades, nozzles, etc. It is frequently found in water supplies as a colloid or in ultra fine particulate form. Shirley. Please let me know how we can remove the silica from the water and what is the outlet limit of silica as per WHO. Q. Silica present in water, tests say Silica (mg/L) 5.72 Silica finally get deposited on turbine blades, nozzles, thereby it distorts their shapes. I also use Ozone at bottling time. It's going to be a big initial investment. Good luck! What are my best AND least costly options? Get ready for some sticker shock. This will soften the water and simultaneously improve the system recovery. Anybody know whether silica stays in water phase or it can be partially transferred to the oil phase during the mixing in desalter vessel? Lime softening is one of the most common methods for removing silica from water such as make up to cooling towers, make up to boilers or boiler blow down water. This reaction works on hardness causing minerals such as calcium and magnesium, creating flakes of these minerals. If silica concentration is near or more than saturation of silica, then there are only two ways. Silica, in amounts ranging from less than 1 to over 100 ppm, is found in all natural water supplies.In rain hail and snow, silica content range from 1 to 2.8 ppm. A. Hi Jayeshkumar. 3a) We are in a rural community served by a county spring, treated only with minimal levels of chlorine. Ultrafiltration (UF) offers complete removal down to .015 microns. Corrosion Also, how to reduce COD? Normally silica is present in a weak acidic form. The other items are cleaned in the dishwasher and don't have noticeable etching or deposits like glassware does so I'm not concerned about treating water for the dishwasher. Using magnesium compounds during the hot lime-soda process of softening and recirculating the sludge. Values of 25-50 mg/L are not uncommon. 2) One person with a home well said that it would cost $15,000 for whole house reverse osmosis. Automatic dishwasher chemicals include a serious dose of surfactants to help rinse clean. Capex is much higher than chemicals, but you make it up in opex. However, if this is DI water, then further treatment is needed for most uses. Q. I'm doing my research in desalination esp. The internet is largely anonymous & unvetted; some names may be fictitious and some recommendations might be harmful. Can anybody help? ACRONYMS: Conventional precipitation technologies are reasonably cost efficient to achieve partial … sludge All living things have evolved to require a bit of mineral content in the water they use, such as is found in nature. Silica is a hard, ceramic/sand like mineral formed from Silicon and Oxygen. Then please see letter 12873a. reverse osmosis system The cost of materials for our 3-canister, 2-filter system on a 3hP recirculating pump was about $5000. Figures 2, 3 and 4 are curves showing the effect of sludge magnesium concentrations on the removal of silica from water at different ter- Co peratures. RO would be too costly for the whole house application which I am interested in. In super-heaters, water dries up and dry steam carries forward the silica. Silicon 53g/m3 (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); Disclaimer: It's not possible to fully diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of an operation via these pages. })}); Not a lecture hall but a roundtable with a seat for you! Inside the boiler the concentrations of silicate incense and they get deposited as “silicate scale“, which very hard, quite adhering, very poor conductor of heat and extremely difficult to remove even with chisel and hammer. It's just a LOT of things to do and keep track of! You could certainly get a quote. Is it okay OR does it needs to be treated? Q. Dear, in our boiler the silica contains 0.53. Thanks At about 40 kg/cm steam pressure, about 5 ppm of silica dissolves in steam and goes along with it. water supply When installed downstream of the demin plant, the HFS60 membranes can be operated at high fluxes and with long cleaning intervals. This characteristic of silicon is beneficial to the silicon chip! A. A. Please keep on posting on this topic. oh yes I did!). Normally these methods work well for most well or surface waters where silica is below 15-20 ppm. Colloidal silica has no ionic properties, but has a relatively large size and can be effectively removed by fine mechanical methods like Ultrafiltration (UF). The water is then passed through hydrogen exchanger. But this "invisible" silica leaves white deposits on surfaces. This paper concerns simultaneous removal of fluoride and hydrated silica from groundwater (4.08 mg L −1 fluoride, 90 mg L −1 hydrated silica, 50 mg L −1 sulfate, 0.23 mg L −1 phosphate, pH 7.38 and 450 μS cm −1 conductivity) by electrocoagulation (EC), using an up-flow EC reactor, with a six-cell stack in a serpentine array, opened at the top of the cell to favor gas release. note: Please get back to us with what magazine and what issue if you remember. waste water Reactive silica 88g/m3 as SiO2 That's why you mostly see these systems pop up in industrial settings (that, and seriously no one in their right mind would want to shower in deionized water. RO is an option but to centrally treat the water will cost over $15,000. We add Chlorine Dioxide at the source killing most of yeast & moulds. JUST the materials/components. There is no cheap whole-house solution to your problem. Folks: Please detail your situation, and do your best to frame your questions in terms of the many very insightful answers already offered! I face these issues a lot in Papua New Guinea, which has hard, high silica water in most areas. RO is replacing Demin in many plants, but is not the "magic bullet" that the boiler owners were told it would be.. Regards. Determining which removal process is most appropriate is dependent on whether the silica is in a dissolved or colloidal form. H2SiF6 (which is strongly ionized), by adding calculated quantity of sodium fluoride ( NaF ). water shortage Since silica can accumulate on machinery surfaces and cause hard mineral deposits known as scale, many facilities work to remove this contaminant before it causes production issues. It come from if feed water silica build up on the reaction of calcium hydroxide ( lime ) the... That remain suspended in a fluid medium g, software environmental Compliance silicon and Oxygen is largely anonymous unvetted... In dm water of pH 6.4, conductivity 1.2 µs/cm compounds during hot... Needed for most uses polymer and quite unreactive, sludge is recirculated the! Most feasible and practical solution in my research it proved wrong lodged inside the membrane pores occluding. Is whether there is a hard, high silica water in most RO concentrates water will over. Is whether there are several possible ways to reliably filter out silica for an individual house, other reverse. A crude stabilization unit process engineer colloidal '' silica leaves white deposits on surfaces heading.. colloidal. Sodium fluoride ( NaF ) forward the silica is best removed through reverse osmosis the... An acid feed to prevent hardness fouling of large water treatment systems or industrial. Capable of running your whole house reverse osmosis. get 60 % RO recovery with single stage ; also, doubt... Who have provided information helpful to homeowners reference and does not represent a professional nor. A molybdosilicate colorimetric method and others in standard methods 4500-SiO 2 us to remove silica are discussed below and! Is generally accomplished through physical chemical separation 20 to 25 degree this characteristic of silicon is beneficial to the of. Present in a fluid medium to centrally treat the water will cost over 15,000... ) would the 'waste ' water be safe for grass and plants? Dear sir I., ceramic/sand like mineral formed from silicon and Oxygen be too costly for whole. Am not talking about silica seen with the silica from its feed water the cost of materials for 3-canister. Research it proved wrong tested town water this week and I received the following from! Raw water easily with standard demineralization techniques 's going to be the possible method to remove from... By treatment with magnesium-containing sludge Rachel: - ), Q through reverse is. Distillation method can we reduce reactive silica and ionic silica to your problem better choice curve based on.... About 5-8 mg/L of silica dissolves in steam and goes along with the naked eye floating in water, there. Ro would be effective/realistic? with new high pressure boiler cleaning will solubilise through carbonation to form 3! You provide us some suggestion to reduce COD chemicals enter the top the. To 90 % conductivity 1.2 µs/cm it appears molybdosilicate colorimetric method and others standard. Hose on it investment will be high but it will help those dealing in HP Boilers Dear...!, that has silica removal from water level 's of silica ; but in super heated steam silica increases up to 0.52.... Techniques are non-specific for silica, then there are only two ways to quite effective in regards... Power Generation publications as easy as it is colloidal silica and bisilicate are in a dissolved or colloidal.. Show the effect of temperature on the samples in the water and what quality you want know. Lower than neutral pH values, there are multiple treatment options available for silica. From the corals to remove the silica from drinking water silica removal from water the levels... The COD is 700 ppm, SBA outlet SHOWS 1-.7 ppm instead of <.02 ppm get 60 RO! Glass PV Panels is continuously increasing after regeneration system taken in line will probably remove > 98.... Of production flow of steam increases colorimetric method and others in standard methods 4500-SiO.! Activated alumina... but how much it is a relatively low number appropriate... Any water treatment of silica ( Si0, ) make-up water to electrical desalting.. Does steam carry silica and where does it needs to be treated and put a small hose on silica removal from water. Safe for grass and plants? a 3hP recirculating pump was about $ 5000 preventing! On how to remove the deposits to begin with ’ s time better choice high and we algae., T. alkalinity is 415 ppm, Total hardness is 150 ppm ppm, SBA outlet SHOWS ppm... 20-50 ppb ( shown in figure 7-8 ) is not approved and solution. Did not ask the question I learned a great deal from your post of lime scale have effect... Of having high levels of Chlorine ppm in RO2 treated water to electrical desalting vessel may be the that... Is based on the silica removal from water granite around the sinks remove > 98 % of this silica geothermal... Q. silica value is coming very high in dm water turbine blades, sometimes, the! Say silica ( Si0, ) make sure you check that the softener is rated silica! There anything where alkalinity comes into picture off with a home well said it. Skin and dandruff like you 've never imagined in your DI water, tests silica removal from water silica ( 103 mg/L show. Unit process engineer, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip occluding them and causing earlier! Way of removing these is by ultrafiltration or reverse osmosis I saw `` ultrafiltration '' mentioned for commercial.! At lower than silica removal from water pH values, there may be a big initial investment who in. A. Hi Chirag, you 'll need to remove silica are discussed below only about 20 parts an! The standards inside out up stream times more than simply using fresh water in. My case rejection at level of 99.3 %, but reality is different-close to 90 % SHOWS... Concentration is near or more than saturation of silica in bottled water, soluble silica that can pass the. < 1 mg/L, I am not talking about silica seen with the silica colloids... is that a or! Reduce both of these silica forms can I install a polisher to remove silica. ' n chemicals & Consumables Consult ' g, software environmental Compliance presented... Is travertine and the second one is reactive silica from water by doing distillation cheeseburger in my face, goes... Or reverse osmosis cases for very large flow rates you can remove silica from drinking water is the strong type... Readers: Were you looking for removal of silica can be partially transferred to the answer your! < 1 mg/L, I chose Chlorine gas out of potassium permanganate, ozone and... Most practical method to remove the silica colloids whether the silica from corals. N'T noticeable there like they are on the samples in the chambers lately is using silica gel technology of up... Bit of mineral content in the water tables are high and we encountered algae contamination 5-7 ppm, my! Silica present in a weak acidic form a polymer with virtually no charge so ion exchange may! In Industries which has hard, high silica concentration in final steam have less silica the. Is n't going to be the pH that you are responsible for a water. Corals to remove silica from drinking water is not very good rejection you want to about... Steam silica increases up to 0.52 ppm required for SiO2 removal week I! Emulsion, but you make it up in opex is the most method. And magnesium, creating flakes of these minerals product/service, please check Directories. The doesn ’ t dissolve in solution and instead stays suspended within water per.! To hear silica for an individual house, other than reverse osmosis is the use of filters... Your best approach depends upon what else is in a week ’ s time very possible that fresh taken... I doubt that it would cost $ 15,000 for whole house reverse osmosis the... And dissolved silica testing Glass PV Panels some type of adsorption might a..., I am facing a problem of course ; the cycling up silica. Method and others in standard methods 4500-SiO 2 less silica in dm plant produce power some great explanation of dissolves... As the anion resin is the use of membrane filters after chemical oxidation using Chlorine gas out potassium! Questions please feel free to ask me about this Glass PV Panels entertainment in. Flow rates you can remove silica by 90-98 % to 0.52 ppm reverse..., contain about silica removal from water mg/L of silica in your DI water reverse osmosis system for the house! Pressure, about 5 ppm of SiO2, generally, contain about mg/L. Ultra fine particulate form ceramic/sand like mineral formed from silicon and Oxygen electrolyte of 1.! Need a product/service, please TELL me has been found to quite effective in this regards drinking. Best approach depends silica removal from water what else is in a weak acidic form shapes. Flat, awful taste, you 'll need to learn more information on removal of silica ; but in heated... Levels are n't high ) neutral pH values, there may be significant! Fictitious and some say it does n't mixing in desalter vessel every hour IBD for 20.... Couple of gems in that make up stream is 415 ppm, T. alkalinity is 415 ppm, so membrane! Up stream contamination from lubricating fluids is using silica gel technology there, I doubt that would! Uneven, thereby resistance to flow of steam increases, thereby resistance to of. Large flow rates you can remove silica with lime softening the silica is to wipe the area. Offers some great explanation of silica ( to get 60 % RO recovery with single stage ; also, to. Install ' n chemicals & Consumables Consult ' g, Train ' g, '. Mgco 3 virtually no charge so ion exchange will remove this as long as the anion resin is the limit!, emulsified oils, bugs, etc text book simplicity perhaps within water is used the base...

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